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    Zigbee and zwave what's the difference?

    What's the differences between the two? Or they the same?

    Reason I am asking because I am planning to install a solar panel inverter and it has a option of zigbee, but I don't know if this will be helpful for HS system.
    Hector
    ____________________________________
    Win.2003 OS, HS3
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    MyTrigger,ACRF2,W800,Zwave
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    #2
    Hi Hector,

    They are not the same. To start with Zigbee operates in the 2.4 GHz range and Z-Wave in the 900 MHz range. Here's an article comparing them: http://electronicdesign.com/communic...bee-and-z-wave. There are many other articles like this. Some are biased towards zigbee and some to z-wave. You would need a Zigbee receiver for the solar panel and then a way to interface it with HS. Possible in theory, but it's likely not an off-the-shelf solution.

    Cheers
    Al
    HS 4.2.8.0: 2134 Devices 1252 Events
    Z-Wave 3.0.10.0: 133 Nodes on one Z-Net

    Comment


      #3
      Originally posted by sparkman View Post
      Hi Hector,

      They are not the same. To start with Zigbee operates in the 2.4 GHz range and Z-Wave in the 900 MHz range. Here's an article comparing them: http://electronicdesign.com/communic...bee-and-z-wave. There are many other articles like this. Some are biased towards zigbee and some to z-wave. You would need a Zigbee receiver for the solar panel and then a way to interface it with HS. Possible in theory, but it's likely not an off-the-shelf solution.

      Cheers
      Al
      Thanks Al

      I difinetly will not go with zigbee, I belive that zwave is superior. I will find another way to integrate the inverter to HS.
      Hector
      ____________________________________
      Win.2003 OS, HS3
      BLDSC,BLstat,BLRadar,BLRamdom,BLOccupied
      BLups,BLrain8,HSTouch,Ultrajones Weatherbug,
      MyTrigger,ACRF2,W800,Zwave
      AP800,Honeywell Stat

      Comment


        #4
        I have seen Zigbee utilized for more commercial stuff than residential stuff...concurrently when the Utility companies have been implementing the "smart meters" with concurrent connectivity to thermostats and they have been all Zigbee connected. I have a few little tabletop kiosks which did/do this. They are neato devices as they can connect to the internet via Gb, Wireless 802.XX and 3G/4G. Very energy consumption oriented with pages of graphs relating to the pennies of energy use. Impressive stuff. The ones that I played with came from the Midwest, East Coast and West Coast utility companies.

        I am currently playing with a few wireless / wired Zigbee devices on one "hub" that talk Z-Wave, Zigbee and Hue right now. The devices work fine. I do not see the granular details of transport connectivity (no RF stuff). The light / appliance switches just work and the battery operated gizmos also just work (PIRs, door switches, flood sensor et al). One did eat a battery in less than 6 months though. The console connectivity doesn't really say or show whether its a Zigbee, Z-Wave or Hue light, it just tells me whether it is off or on. Cloud response times are excellent whether using a browser on a PC, iOS, Android or Wintel phone. (note that I am not a cloud person though).

        Thing is I enjoy watching my weather graphs but do not want to watch my energy usage today. That said if it was my own created electricity I would probably watch it and blame the sun if it didn't work. (the sun will not listen to me though).

        I did just write a short debbie downer paragraph here about the illicit use of home energy credits by illicit companies and accidently hit the back key and lost what I was writing about.
        Last edited by Pete; January 10, 2015, 04:10 PM.
        - Pete

        Auto mator
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        Comment


          #5
          Usually on a solar system the zigbee option is to talk to a revenue grade meter for production or to a gateway unit that has an internet connection that allows the inverter to call home to the installation company or another production aggregation company.

          At my home I have a 10.5kw ground mount grid tied solar system. It uses enphase microinverters. It uses PLC from each micro inverter to the "envoy" gateway device. The Envoy connects to the internet and also is Zigbee enabled. It uses Zigbee to talk to a revenue grade meter installed on the output of the trunk cables after the production strings have been combined. this all gets pushed up to a web server that shows each individual panel output as well as total system production from the zigbee meter.

          The enphase website has a great json api, and someday I want to bring that production info into HS3, but I haven't gotten around to doing that (i keep hoping someone might write a plugin).

          Zigbee can certainly co-exist with Z-wave, i have both in play with my house.

          Also, if you are still early in your solar system plans, i strongly suggest looking at micro-inverters instead of a traditional single unit string inverter.

          there are a number of benefits in my opinion to micro inverters:
          1) shading only affects single panels and not entire strings of panels.
          2) microinverters distribute the heat load of DC/AC rectification and inversion so internal components run under lower heat exposure and stress.
          3) microinverters usually carry a longer warranty than a string inverter. In my system my enphase units are warrantied for 20 years, where a comparable string inverter would carry 10years.
          4) cost to replace a single micro-inverter is minimal as opposed to the major cost of replacing a dead string inverter.
          5) it is easier to add on to a system with micro-inverters without changing string calulations and inverter sizing. (you add more inverters as you grow your system).

          I've compared production from my enphase system to 2 other very similar string inverter systems (same # and wattage panels), and hands down my micro system outperforms the string systems every day in all conditions.

          The only reason i would install a traditional string inverter system is if I wanted to make it a hybrid system and have local battery backup for when the grid is down. That, imo, is the only downside to micro-inverters. The cost difference is more than made up for during the life of the system with increased production.

          Comment


            #6
            Originally posted by ORNVM View Post

            Zigbee can certainly co-exist with Z-wave, i have both in play with my house.

            Also, if you are still early in your solar system plans, i strongly suggest looking at micro-inverters instead of a traditional single unit string inverter.

            there are a number of benefits in my opinion to micro inverters:
            1) shading only affects single panels and not entire strings of panels.
            2) microinverters distribute the heat load of DC/AC rectification and inversion so internal components run under lower heat exposure and stress.
            3) microinverters usually carry a longer warranty than a string inverter. In my system my enphase units are warrantied for 20 years, where a comparable string inverter would carry 10years.
            4) cost to replace a single micro-inverter is minimal as opposed to the major cost of replacing a dead string inverter.
            5) it is easier to add on to a system with micro-inverters without changing string calulations and inverter sizing. (you add more inverters as you grow your system).

            I've compared production from my enphase system to 2 other very similar string inverter systems (same # and wattage panels), and hands down my micro system outperforms the string systems every day in all conditions.

            The only reason i would install a traditional string inverter system is if I wanted to make it a hybrid system and have local battery backup for when the grid is down. That, imo, is the only downside to micro-inverters. The cost difference is more than made up for during the life of the system with increased production.
            Thank you for your advice, I had already had in mind using micro inverters for my setup. The brand they are recommending is "Solar Edge" when reading the specs it said that it had an option for zigbee, that's why I posted this question here. I am trying to obsorbe as much as I can regarding this topic, there a lot of thing you have to have in mind. How are you using zwave in your setup with HS?
            Hector
            ____________________________________
            Win.2003 OS, HS3
            BLDSC,BLstat,BLRadar,BLRamdom,BLOccupied
            BLups,BLrain8,HSTouch,Ultrajones Weatherbug,
            MyTrigger,ACRF2,W800,Zwave
            AP800,Honeywell Stat

            Comment


              #7
              I'm not using Z-wave in my solar setup at all, just using Z-wave for all of my lighting and outlet control, and door locks. I'm using zigbee in my enphase system from my production meter to the envoy gateway, and then PLC (power line carrier, similar to how X10 works) from each micro inverter to the envoy gateway.

              That solar edge system is interesting. It isn't a traditional micro-inverter, it is still using a full sized DC/AC inverter, but has a module level optimizer at each panel to avoid the pitfall of partial shaded strings. They seem like they are trying to find the sweet spot of getting some of the benefits of micro-inverters, but without de-centralizing so much hardware that costs increase like with a traditional micro-inverter system. It still has the inhearant disadvantage of having a large centralized inverter that will be more costly to replace, but carries a 25 year warranty so who cares!

              Comment


                #8
                Originally posted by ORNVM View Post
                I'm not using Z-wave in my solar setup at all, just using Z-wave for all of my lighting and outlet control, and door locks. I'm using zigbee in my enphase system from my production meter to the envoy gateway, and then PLC (power line carrier, similar to how X10 works) from each micro inverter to the envoy gateway.

                That solar edge system is interesting. It isn't a traditional micro-inverter, it is still using a full sized DC/AC inverter, but has a module level optimizer at each panel to avoid the pitfall of partial shaded strings. They seem like they are trying to find the sweet spot of getting some of the benefits of micro-inverters, but without de-centralizing so much hardware that costs increase like with a traditional micro-inverter system. It still has the inhearant disadvantage of having a large centralized inverter that will be more costly to replace, but carries a 25 year warranty so who cares!
                So you think I should look for another alternative then the solar edge in your opinion? Like I said I know barly nothing about the inverter part it. I do know solar panels come in with diferent watts and sizes, but the heart of of the sistem is where I am a bit lost. I thought that the optimizer was the micro inverter
                Hector
                ____________________________________
                Win.2003 OS, HS3
                BLDSC,BLstat,BLRadar,BLRamdom,BLOccupied
                BLups,BLrain8,HSTouch,Ultrajones Weatherbug,
                MyTrigger,ACRF2,W800,Zwave
                AP800,Honeywell Stat

                Comment


                  #9
                  I would price compare a true micro inverter system (like enphase or SMA) and evaluate to that. Microinverter is pretty tried and true technology just like a string inverter, the solar-edge system seems like it might be a great hybrid of those two which maximizes befits at lowest cost, but i don't know how much market saturation is has.

                  A true micro-inverter takes the DC energy produced by the PV panel and rectifies it to AC and inverts it to match your home energy type (240v, Single-phase, 60hz for most US residential). Then this AC current is bound together in parallel and back-fed into your home electrical service. Some "ac" branded solar panels, even have these electronics built into the panel now and it is all one unit that just outputs grid-ready power. you also get module level reporting so you can see if 1 panel is down, where in a string system diagnosing single panel failures is a huge pain since you just notice total system degradation and then have to diagnose which string and then figure out which panel is having issues. many times these problems go un-noticed for months, or years.

                  A traditional string inverter bonds the DC output of several panels in series to create high voltage DC that is then combined with other series strings and fed to a single large DC-AC rectifier and inverter. This inverter then back-feeds your home electrical service. Cost savings are realized because the economy of scale comes into play where 1 larger component is usually cheaper than many smaller components for the same function. But this also creates one large costly component instead of many smaller lower cost devices. Having DC panels in series strings also creates efficiency issues where all of the panels in the string can only produce as much power as the lowest producing panel, so if you have 6 panels in a string and 1 is shaded, the other 5 sink their energy into the 1 shaded and the entire string produces as if it was entirely shaded.

                  The solar-edge system seems to be a hybrid of these technologies, where some optimization takes place at each panel and the DC energy is placed into parallel and then sent to a single inverter and rectifier. this gets a happy medium between getting the benefits of individual panel level monitoring, avoids string shading, but it keeps the cost advantage of centralizing the inverter components. I can still see draw backs though as you have a larger single inverter (higher replacement costs, and would, in theory run hotter than smaller distributed micro inverters), and you're still having to go DC from panel to inverter. But it definitely is better than a string inverter system in my opinion, and depending on how much you save in costs, it might be a great deal.

                  One thing to be acutely aware of in the solar "Biz" is that it is still in many ways in its infancy. I've seen a number of start up companies with "good ideas" come to market and then fizzle out or get acquired by another larger company for some of their patents and then the parent company phases out the old line of products and integrates the technology into their new line which isn't necessarily compatible with the OEM you bought. I have no idea how established of a company solar-edge is, or if that should even be a concern, but i'd definitely look into it before making a sizable financial commitment to them.

                  There is also the whole DIY vs Installer and the owned vs leased vs financed structures to decide on too. I've seen quite a few people taken by slick companies selling systems that have very low start-up costs, but have very poor payback to the customer over time. There are benefits and drawbacks to every method, and a lot of it depends on what local incentives you receive from your local power company, any state department of energy credits or other local "green energy" programs.

                  You also should consider what the energy market is going to do over the next 10-20 years. I factored that heavily in my decision to go solar, and it is such a nice relief when I get notice of rate increases from the power company that will have no affect on my monthly bill because of my offsetting solar production.

                  My system is part of a local program which actually pays a premium for my production ($0.317/kwh) on top of net metering and the federal energy credit! So solar was extremely attractive. I also leveraged it to add assessed value to my house which facilitated a re-fi package which lowered my house payment enough to make the payment on what i financed to purchase the solar equipment.

                  By the way, adding solar in most states increases the assessed value without increasing the taxable assessed value as most states do not allow alternative energy to increase TAV. It is also exempt from many planning regulations such as set backs, and some jurisdictions even have preemptive laws which make home owner association covenants unable to prevent PV installations.

                  I chose Enphase and installed the system myself. To get final sign off the system had to be checked out by an electrician with a special green energy certificate from the state. I contracted with him to do the final connections, but i saved substantially doing the majority of the labor myself.
                  Last edited by ORNVM; January 11, 2015, 06:16 PM.

                  Comment


                    #10
                    Excellent write up. I have the electronic knowledge but not the labor know how to install something like this. I was grated money from my electric company to this, but I am not in no way knowledged to do this endeavor.

                    I wished you lived near my home I need to speak with the company that I am dialoging with to see if we can go the inverter route. At first they steered me to the optimizer idea,but I will ask about the inverter option.
                    Hector
                    ____________________________________
                    Win.2003 OS, HS3
                    BLDSC,BLstat,BLRadar,BLRamdom,BLOccupied
                    BLups,BLrain8,HSTouch,Ultrajones Weatherbug,
                    MyTrigger,ACRF2,W800,Zwave
                    AP800,Honeywell Stat

                    Comment


                      #11
                      Hello ROTECH & ORNVM,

                      I was reading your posts with interest. Perhaps you have solved your interface problems and I would be interested in knowing what method was used.

                      I have a 35 panel 8225 KW array (Mar 2011) that uses Enphase microinverters. I have developed a way to extract data from the ENVOY that does not use z-wave or zigbee. Rather I use datascraping programs to "mine" data off either the Envoy website or the Enlighten website. The Envoy website is more "current" and the Enlighten site is better for histoirical data like data from yesterday. I am able to get notified within 24hrs if any of my inverters experience problems such as "Grid Gone", "Failed to Report", Sleeping", "Grid Instability", or "Less Than 35 Panels Reporting". I have been able to use this data (mined directly from Enphase's equipment) to get Enphase to replace defective inverters that would otherwise go undetected. I use a TED 5000 system to monitor grid usage and solar generation. All of these metrics are fed into HS devices or are tracked by graphing programs for trending and analysis. Let me know if you would like to know more or if you have other solutions that I could take advantage of.

                      regards,
                      -Cliff

                      Comment


                        #12
                        Hi Cliff,
                        I recently moved into a house with the Enphase microinverters and Envoy gateway and I am interested in pulling some of that data into my HS3 setup. Would you be willing to share your method?
                        Thanks!

                        Comment


                          #13
                          Methods

                          Originally posted by LxMeister View Post
                          Hi Cliff,
                          I recently moved into a house with the Enphase microinverters and Envoy gateway and I am interested in pulling some of that data into my HS3 setup. Would you be willing to share your method?
                          Thanks!
                          Hello LxMeister,

                          Yes, I would be willing to share what I have leaned and how I collect data from the Enphase environment. I have decided not to use the API as it does not offer information that is not also available from the envoy and the envoy offers data that is not available via the API. And the Enphase website offers data that is not available from the envoy(historical metrics). I would suggest a call and will contact you to set that up.

                          regards, Cliff

                          Comment


                            #14
                            A quick comment on Zigbee. The Hue and related lights that many of us use are Zigbee. It's well proven to work well with HomeSeer.

                            Comment


                              #15
                              Here also tinkering with the Securifi Almond products which do both Z-Way and Zigbee.

                              Zigbee has also become the defacto standard of commercial wireless automation.

                              It would be nice to see a Homeseer Zigbee plugin and controller available.

                              There is one sold that is similiar to the RPi GPIO Z-Wave controller.

                              Looks like this:

                              - Pete

                              Auto mator
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