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Irrigation Discussion Discussion of irrigation integration with HomeSeer systems.

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  #61  
Old October 11th, 2014, 11:21 PM
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But, I am not using the qpf figure. I need to fix that. Maybe reduce the amount of irrigation by that qpf figure?
That's the key question, and I would also like to know the answer too. As a starting point, it's why I thought it worthwhile to investigate how accurate the forecasts actually are. For instance, early today WU was predicting 0.25" total precipitation for today, but we actually had 1.48". I'd say that's a pretty large variance between forecast and actual. If that's typical of forecasts, then maybe a good strategy is to irrigate the bare minimum (and only if it's absolutely needed) to get through the next day or two to see how the rainfall actually pans out. Then once all the facts of how much rain actually precipitated are known, you could irrigate more to supplement, if needed. That's the sort of strategy that I'm currently thinking might waste the least amount of water, but I'd be very interested in a brainstorm on other possible strategies, of which you have already mentioned one. So, if anyone can suggest any other possibly worthwhile strategies, please do jump in and say it.

Last edited by NeverDie; October 12th, 2014 at 12:03 AM.
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  #62  
Old October 11th, 2014, 11:55 PM
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I agree. Error on the side of water conservation.

And, yes, the stuff I pasted came from here:

http://api.wunderground.com/api/---your_key_here ---/forecast/q/KS/SHAWNEE_MISSION.json

You don't need a key to get it, but, without the key, the URL format is a little different. But the keys are free and give you 500 hits a day.

That is the place Python goes to to get the forecast. And I've looked at it several times in the past and the 0% probability and then significant amount of precip happens often. I am sure it makes sense to people who understand what it actually means.
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  #63  
Old October 12th, 2014, 12:34 AM
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Thanks for the link.

Looks as though the forecast for tomorrow there has already shifted: "day":12, "month":10, "year":2014, "yday":284, "hour":19, "min":"00", "sec":0, "isdst":"1", "monthname":"October", "monthname_short":"Oct", "weekday_short":"Sun", "weekday":"Sunday", "ampm":"PM", "tz_short":"CDT", "tz_long":"America/Chicago" }, "period":2, "high": { "fahrenheit":"64", "celsius":"18" }, "low": { "fahrenheit":"55", "celsius":"13" }, "conditions":"Overcast", "icon":"cloudy", "icon_url":"http://icons.wxug.com/i/c/k/cloudy.gif", "skyicon":"", "pop":10, "qpf_allday": { "in": 0.61, "mm": 15 }, "qpf_day": { "in": 0.00, "mm": 0 }, "qpf_night": { "in": 0.61, "mm": 15 }

Anyone please do jump in to correct me, but I'm guessing the interpretation of the revised forecast might be: There's a 10% chance of rainfall >= 0.01" tomorrow. If it does rain, then the expected amount of precipitation is 0.61", all at night and none during the day.

Come to think of it, maybe the earlier pop of zero that you reported wasn't really zero in the sense of 0.0000. Maybe it was a float that was greater than zero but less than 0.5, and it got rounded to the nearest integer (zero) for reporting purposes.

Last edited by NeverDie; October 12th, 2014 at 12:52 AM.
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  #64  
Old October 12th, 2014, 01:12 AM
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Anyhow, the pop and qpf for Sunday may make more intuitive sense when you realize that lots of rain is almost a sure thing in your area on Monday based on the pop and qpf you reported for Monday, but that some of that rain might start on Sunday night--probably late on Sunday night, if at all
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  #65  
Old October 12th, 2014, 11:26 AM
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Originally Posted by NeverDie View Post
Come to think of it, maybe the earlier pop of zero that you reported wasn't really zero in the sense of 0.0000. Maybe it was a float that was greater than zero but less than 0.5, and it got rounded to the nearest integer (zero) for reporting purposes.
But you notice that the pop for the next day was 90. So had the probability been, say .6%, the pop would have been displayed as 1. And it would seem that if someone calculated that the actual precip (qpf) would be worthy of mention, the conclusion that the pop would be at least 1% seems reasonable.

(I don't get it) Anyway, that is why I had chosen to ignore the qpf and require the pop to be above 40. Not sure how to handle that.
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  #66  
Old October 12th, 2014, 12:02 PM
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ET Spreadsheets

I found some spreadsheets that might have value. I haven't looked at them yet, but, these look real promising.

http://extension.uidaho.edu/kimberly...-calculations/

The example that the Python script follows is this:

http://www.fao.org/docrep/x0490e/x0490e08.htm
(example 18)
That is the example the spreadsheets also follow.

Also:

http://www.kimberly.uidaho.edu/water...etmain2005.pdf

appendices for above:

http://www.kimberly.uidaho.edu/water...i/appendix.pdf

Last edited by frankc; October 12th, 2014 at 12:31 PM. Reason: added another link
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  #67  
Old October 12th, 2014, 06:28 PM
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Originally Posted by frankc View Post
But you notice that the pop for the next day was 90. So had the probability been, say .6%, the pop would have been displayed as 1. And it would seem that if someone calculated that the actual precip (qpf) would be worthy of mention, the conclusion that the pop would be at least 1% seems reasonable.

(I don't get it) Anyway, that is why I had chosen to ignore the qpf and require the pop to be above 40. Not sure how to handle that.
I agree it's better to know with certainty than to have lingering doubts. Therefore, seems like it's worth posting the snapshot you captured to the WU forum and appending your query to it
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  #68  
Old October 12th, 2014, 07:01 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by frankc View Post
I found some spreadsheets that might have value. I haven't looked at them yet, but, these look real promising.

http://extension.uidaho.edu/kimberly...-calculations/

The example that the Python script follows is this:

http://www.fao.org/docrep/x0490e/x0490e08.htm
(example 18)
That is the example the spreadsheets also follow.

Also:

http://www.kimberly.uidaho.edu/water...etmain2005.pdf

appendices for above:

http://www.kimberly.uidaho.edu/water...i/appendix.pdf
Thanks! The more the merrier.

I'm making progress on learning the basics of python, and afterward I'll be circling back to take a deeper pass at both this and the scripts above that I struggled getting to run.
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  #69  
Old October 13th, 2014, 08:04 AM
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My HomeSeer (2.5.0.81) execution environment is a 6 year old HomeTroller 2 (XP and .Net 2.0) so loading Python, json, et al is probably not a great option.

I have translated the Python code at https://github.com/frankpc3/ET into VB and am using the wunderground XML data files.

The code appears to be working but, at this point, I need to validate the VB results against a known Python results.

At first blush, it seems that comparing the daily balance files would provide a valid test assuming the values for the 'window' and the 'city' are the same.

Would anyone be willing to share this data?

After validation, I will be happy to share the VB code with anyone who is interested.

Best Regards,

Mark
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  #70  
Old October 13th, 2014, 09:13 AM
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Welcome, Mark. Good idea.

You may be slightly ahead of things, though, as I'm not sure to what degree the python results themselves have been validated, and if they were, what the touchstone was. Maybe frankc knows? So far, to the extent validation checks have been done, it would have been frankc or David who did them. As the code is all fairly recent, I wouldn't at all be surprised if the validation work is still largely pending. If it's yet to be done, then maybe the Texas A&M ET website (earlier link), or perhaps a Davis weather station that's been setup to do Davis ET (e.g. earlier link) might serve as touchstones? Ideally, the FAO people would have published a test suite of inputs and official results from using their chain of formulas (above link).... Maybe they did, and I simply didn't find it on my cursory search. So, you may want to also try taking a look yourself to see what you can find. If none of those, then maybe one of the spreadsheets (above links or another spreadsheets yet to be found)....? There definitely exist ET spreadsheets out there, but finding one that's free and downloadable has been a challenge. Maybe you'll get lucky with Bing, or perhaps a fresh google search will turn up some more.... If you want to help rather than wait, it would plainly expedite progress toward your goal....

Last edited by NeverDie; October 13th, 2014 at 05:14 PM.
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  #71  
Old October 13th, 2014, 07:37 PM
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Thanks for the welcome.

I've started looking at the 'solar' calculations. I've found noaa calculations here http://www.esrl.noaa.gov/gmd/grad/solcalc/solareqns.PDF which are of the same form as in the Python code but the constants in the Python code appear to have been modified by various factors for convenience (losing all traceability to original sources). I'm working to convince myself the logic in this area will give valid answers when compared to an independent workbook.
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  #72  
Old October 13th, 2014, 08:19 PM
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Hello. Yes. We've been working on the Python script. I am pretty sure you would be amazed at how well the Dallas Texas A&M posted results match those of the Python script. I have plotted them in Excel. I will try to post the file here. I will have to zip it first. It has two charts and the actual A&M data and the Python results data.

Welcome Mark. I would appreciate seeing your vb code. I need to update my Python script on github I guess. Although it might make more sense to post it here.

I use Windows XP with Homeseer and several other applications that run 24/7. So I'm thnking XP isn't a problem. And this isn't a fast computer by any means.

This thread was started by Mattyjee for his OpenSprinkler Plugin. A friend is planning to buy one and is planning to use Matyjee's plugin here for it. I hope the Python script will work with it.

I'm continuing to improve the script. Today, I wrote some code for it to get actual irrigation time from the Homeseer log. I've been using the script for perhaps 6 days and it is working fine. The problem I've had is I didn't know what Python was two weeks ago.
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  #73  
Old October 13th, 2014, 08:43 PM
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Excel file

Spreadsheet attached showing how the Python script results compare to Texas A&M online calculations for solar radiation and ET.

My first attachment here. Let me know if it didn't work. Or maybe the wrong file. who knows?
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File Type: zip dallas comparison may 1 to oct 11 2014.zip (6.7 KB, 7 views)
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  #74  
Old October 14th, 2014, 12:33 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by frankc View Post
Spreadsheet attached showing how the Python script results compare to Texas A&M online calculations for solar radiation and ET.

My first attachment here. Let me know if it didn't work. Or maybe the wrong file. who knows?
Your spreadsheet and graph download and open fine.

Did you pull the input parameters into python from weatherunderground or somehow from the Texas A&M website? The reason I ask is that you've been referring to it as Dallas, whereas the link I had provided you earlier in this thread was their ET readouts from Austin. So, if you're pulling your data from Dallas rather than Austin, that might explain some of the variance.
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  #75  
Old October 14th, 2014, 06:02 AM
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Smile

<<I use Windows XP with Homeseer and several other applications that run 24/7. So I'm thnking XP isn't a problem. And this isn't a fast computer by any means.>>

The HomeTroller 2 is a dedicated diskless/fanless box which shipped as XP SP2. Since I don't use it for anything but HS 2, I have left it unaltered (more or less).

Beyond just converting the Python code to VB, I'm pondering how far to take the conversion. There are a number of 'stylistic' things I would want to change, e.g. all the configuration information should be in a INI file and the code should be broken up into logical procedures and functions which are easier to manage.

Of course, the further it migrates away from the original Python code, the more difficult it would become to incorporate future updates to the Python code.

BTW, the variable totalClearSkyIsolation is probably meant to be totalClearSkyInsolation - Insolation is used in other variable names and is, apparently, a technical term in solar radiation. Also, the variable previousCloudCover is uninitialized on the very first pass in getHistorical data.

At the moment, I have a basic 8 zone Rainbird system, and as a first pass I'm looking for the application to provide a go/no go output which I would use to disable the Rainbird - next year of course, winter is just around the corner in NJ :-).
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  #76  
Old October 14th, 2014, 08:54 AM
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Originally Posted by NeverDie View Post
Did you pull the input parameters into python from weatherunderground or somehow from the Texas A&M website?
Glad it worked! I pulled the data from the Dallas Texas A&M site. I pulled the WU data from the WU Dallas site. That is why the correlation is close. A&M has perhaps 20 or 30 sites.

What I plan to do next is pull data off of a K-State wx site near here. They post data on an hourly basis. For a test, I will run the Python script using their wx data to calculate ET and SR. I can then compare their results and the Python's for the same set of data. The only difference will be the cloudcover calcs the Python script makes. I figure I can then tweak that routine to equal the "Dallas" SR.
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  #77  
Old October 14th, 2014, 09:13 AM
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Originally Posted by Mark42 View Post
Beyond just converting the Python code to VB, I'm pondering how far to take the conversion. There are a number of 'stylistic' things I would want to change, e.g. all the configuration information should be in a INI file and the code should be broken up into logical procedures and functions which are easier to manage.
Great idea! I will do that. I'm not sure which Python script you looked at - whether the original or my original one. I have made 1,000 changes since either one of them was posted. I will post my latest version here, probably today.

As you say, it is always a problem to maintain two versions of the script. I would like to see what you've done with a thought to migrate mine to VB. I need a push and some help in that regard since I haven't programmed in vb for years.

The problems now are that I have to use an old version of Python to write the code and for it to run in Homeseer HS2 and I miss out on newer Python features. I don't know whether it will run in HS3. The plugins here are written in vb. So compatibility is limited. I don't know how difficult it will be to use it with Mattyjee's OpenSprinkler Plugin.

Fortunately, it runs fine in Homeseer, at least on HS2. It also runs equally well at a DOS command prompt, at least on Windows XP. It also works very tightly with the Snevl Sprinkler controller scripts that I use.
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  #78  
Old October 14th, 2014, 10:35 PM
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Python Script

MattyJee,

Perhaps you could use the attached Python script to add ET to your plugin some day. I have not tested it with HS3 though.

It does work with Snevl sprinkler controller. But another file might be needed for Snevl to make it work. I have the file but maybe his newer version controller has it built in already.

If you have any questions, please let me know.

EDIT: found typo in previous script.
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File Type: zip Python2.zip (8.4 KB, 5 views)
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  #79  
Old October 14th, 2014, 11:50 PM
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Hi frankc,

I did a quick read on the script (probably too quickly) late last night before bed, and it looks as though the earlier approach (location date, time of day, cloud cover) to figuring solar radiation is still there. Maybe it's happenstance, but where I live I notice quite a few weather stations (all or nearly all of them seem to be Davis weather station hardware, though not all of them are using Davis weather station software) which are both near me and posting to weather underground actually do measure solar radiation directly using the Davis sensor (linked above earlier in this thread) and report it almost minute-by-minute to weather underground just like they do with their wind speed measurements. However, either those weather stations aren't computing ET or aren't reporting it to WU, or if they are, WU drops the ET info. Regardless, the data from which ET can be derived is all there on weatherunderground and so could be used by us to compute ET after-the-fact. Perhaps the same is true of WU weather stations near where you and/or David live?

Last edited by NeverDie; October 15th, 2014 at 09:23 AM.
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  #80  
Old October 15th, 2014, 09:23 AM
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Hi frankc,

I did a quick read on the script (probably too quickly) late last night, and it looks as though the earlier approach (location date, time of day, cloud cover) to figuring solar radiation is still there. .
Yes. Those calculations are still there. That is the only way I have to get cloudcover. I've looked and can't find a station nearby that has the information available realtime. The K-state station nearby delays their report by a day or so and even then, the page can't be scraped automatically. Maybe you are suggesting you would have to scrape the report to get the info. I have read on the WU site about people who are measuring that info, but the info is not reported.

Would you give an example to me of a site that has that?
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