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**electron** · January 25, 2005, 02:29 PM

Go to CocoonTech.com, and do a search on ZigBee, you will be surprised, it's far from dead.

**Rupp** · January 25, 2005, 02:32 PM

Your not wrong at all and they continually push back release dates. If they do not get a single product to market fast Z-Wave is going to have so much momentum that it will be too late. In addition a relatively small market is getting flooded with too many competing protocols that it may bring death to many. There's UDP. Z-Wave, X10, and Lutron RadioRA to mention a few. In my opinion there is simply not enough market to keep all of these in the pipeline. Which one wins is the question. It will more than likely be the highest reliability and lowest cost. This is what has kept (lowest cost and acceptable reliability) in the market for so long.

**rocco** · January 25, 2005, 03:46 PM

Mark, keep in mind that the ZigBee specification was only ratified in mid-December. There is no doubt that ZigBee will be huge in the industrial automation market, but as Rupp said, there is plenty of competition in the home automation market. ZWave really has the right to the home market, having preceeded ZigBee by years, but the market is not often fair. When you look at the corporations that are backing ZigBee, it's clearly a David/Goliath situation.

I don't think there will be much of a wait for ZigBee devices. I have three running already.

**Rupp** · January 25, 2005, 03:52 PM

Rocco,
What devices do you have running?

**electron** · January 25, 2005, 05:25 PM

Rupp, which manufacture is pushing back the release of ZigBee based products? As rocco mentioned, the ZigBee standard has only been ratified about a month ago, and several companies have showcased ZigBee products already. .Judging by the number of companies working on ZigBee products for industrial automation and home automation I wouldn't be surprised if ZigBee becomes a major player. Keep in mind that ZigBee is more than just light switches (as far as I know, Z-wave, Insteon , UBP only address consumer level home automation needs).

**markwill** · January 25, 2005, 05:40 PM

Originally posted by Electron

Rupp, which manufacture is pushing back the release of ZigBee based products? As rocco mentioned, the ZigBee standard has only been ratified about a month ago, and several companies have showcased ZigBee products already. .Judging by the number of companies working on ZigBee products for industrial automation and home automation I wouldn't be surprised if ZigBee becomes a major player. Keep in mind that ZigBee is more than just light switches (as far as I know, Z-wave, Insteon , UBP only address consumer level home automation needs).

Are there actually any home automation-related products available today (as opposed to being showcased). I not sure just what it means in the real world for a standard to be "ratified" but, from my newbie perspective, your comments are a mirror imagine of some of the comments I found from a couple of years ago. Not being critical (I most certainly hope you are right) - but one gent a couple years ago said words to the effect of "Although I can't reveal my sources, happen to know that some very large vendors are about to enter the market with Zigbee and the thing is about to take off".

Until that stuff is really, truly, actually available to buy (and I'm interested in the earlier poster that said he had three devices installed) I'll consider Zigbee just another "Real Soon Now" technology. And if it takes off I'll be the first to raise my hat and say it was worth the wait :-)

Mark

**electron** · January 25, 2005, 05:47 PM

oh, you couldn't be more right, I am still skeptical about all these new protocols, but as you can tell by all the press releases I have posted, there is obviously something going on

I am fairly sure that ZigBee is here to stay based on all the reports I have read, I am just not sure how much of it will be home automation related, or when these device would start appearing on the market.

**rocco** · January 25, 2005, 07:12 PM

Originally posted by markwill

. . . I'm interested in the earlier poster that said he had three devices installed

Rupp & Mark:
I don't have anything 'installed', I said I have them 'running'.

They are prototypes.

Two of them are battery-powered sensors. I can't tell you what they sense. The third is a specialty lighting system. All three of them are aimed at environmental control in office buildings, but one of the home automation hardware companies may carry the lighting system. I feel it will be too expensive for the typical home, however. ZigBee is meant to be inexpensive.

**markwill** · January 26, 2005, 11:52 AM

I ask this not in a sarcastic way but just for clarity - am I correct in saying that even though Zigbee has been actively discussed for at least a couple of years and (presumably) none of the vendors were "caught off guard" when the so-called ratification occured, there is still not one single product that is available for residential applications?

I can see how things might be a little slow to get going but I don't understand why none of the vendors are ready yet. AT THIS STAGE (words I hope will come back to haunt me), it seems like those who are driving the "standard" (which, presumably includes encouraging vendors to ship stuff) are not doing a great job and that Zigbee is in danger of being just another great idea...

Thanks.

Mark

**anogee** · January 26, 2005, 12:13 PM

Its my job to follow the wireless market, and I see growing interest in Zigbee. I also see interest in Zigbee much wider than the small group of companies that are in Z-Wave. Now, having said that, Z-Wave is here today, and Zigbee isn't, although I have seen a few Zigbee demos, and the chips are starting to appear.

Although Zigbee won't be "The Home Automation" standard anytime soon, I think you will see it used in industrial automation and as a replacement for IR in remote controls within the next few years. As for home automation, that really depends upon Z-Wave. If Z-Wave can get a good foothold by the time Zigbee is available, Zigbee will have a difficult time breaking in. On the other-hand, if Z-Wave never gains widespread traction, then Zigbee is really competing with X-10 and not Z-Wave, and I think the door is wide open.

Many companies are currently planning to ramp-up Zigbee chip production, which should keep the price low, in fact, much lower than Bluetooth, and full mesh-networking is built into Zigbee, so it may be more robust than Z-Wave. But it will likely take 5 years or longer before you'll have a good variety of Zigbee switches. Zigbee is not rushing to get into home automation, because total revenues there are still rather low.

I wouldn't writeoff Zigbee, but I also wouldn't make any immediate plans for a Zigbee controlled house.

**markwill** · January 26, 2005, 12:22 PM

Originally posted by anogee

Its my job to follow the wireless market, and I see growing interest in Zigbee. I also see interest in Zigbee much wider than the small group of companies that are in Z-Wave. Now, having said that, Z-Wave is here today, and Zigbee isn't, although I have seen a few Zigbee demos, and the chips are starting to appear.

Although Zigbee won't be "The Home Automation" standard anytime soon, I think you will see it used in industrial automation and as a replacement for IR in remote controls within the next few years. As for home automation, that really depends upon Z-Wave. If Z-Wave can get a good foothold by the time Zigbee is available, Zigbee will have a difficult time breaking in. On the other-hand, if Z-Wave never gains widespread traction, then Zigbee is really competing with X-10 and not Z-Wave, and I think the door is wide open.

Many companies are currently planning to ramp-up Zigbee chip production, which should keep the price low, in fact, much lower than Bluetooth, and full mesh-networking is built into Zigbee, so it may be more robust than Z-Wave. But it will likely take 5 years or longer before you'll have a good variety of Zigbee switches. Zigbee is not rushing to get into home automation, because total revenues there are still rather low.

I wouldn't writeoff Zigbee, but I also wouldn't make any immediate plans for a Zigbee controlled house.

Thanks for the response. So, let me ask about opinions about ZWave. Although there is obviously some traction here, as someone just entering the home automation field, I find it amazing that seemingly obvious components are not available. For example, it seems to me to be very common to have a wall mounted light switch that has multiple buttons (dimmers) yet I have not found anthing at all that supports this with ZWave - they all appear to be simple, single button devices. On the assumption that there is technically no great leap to go from 1 to, say, 3 buttons (each being programmed their own way), is it fair to say that the ZWave "community" of vendors is in danger of being too slow to market? After a year or so of actual availability I would have expected a deluge of devices by now. Perhaps I am being overly optimistic but I'd appreciate any thoughts on whether ZWave is executing well on the apparent opportunity it has.

Mark

**electron** · January 26, 2005, 12:40 PM

This is normal, just think about how long it took before the first advanced X10 devices appeared on the market, X10 has been around for a very long time

Z-wave is growing pretty fast, although at a frustrating pace since we all want a better than X10 solution with plenty of hardware offerings from the beginning. ACT just announced some new Z-wave hardware, so things are moving for sure.

**anogee** · January 27, 2005, 01:02 PM

Here is a good article. CMP is a competitor to us, but a good article nevertheless.

http://www.commsdesign.com/news/insi...cleID=58800004

**Karen** · January 27, 2005, 02:26 PM

I am always kind of amazed when a group of engineers agree on anything.

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